International Solidarity

The discussion centered on the interconnected struggles for demilitarization, ceasefire, and human rights. Thapelo Mohapi from Abahlali baseMjondolo highlighted their movement's fight for adequate housing and basic services in South Africa, noting 25 members killed since 2005. Chris Grove from ESCR-Net emphasized the global war economy's impact, citing increased repression and militarization. Both speakers stressed the importance of solidarity, collective action, and the need for a peaceful, inclusive society. They also discussed the distortion of self-determination, particularly in the context of Palestine, and the necessity of community-led struggles for genuine human rights and justice.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:08

Music, welcome. Welcome to Kairos time. It's Kairos time. Welcome everybody to it's Kairos time. Kairos time. Kairos time. You Music. Welcome to its carous time. Stop the War on the floor, a podcast series dedicated to lifting up the calls for demilitarization and a permanent ceasefire. Now, as we know, wars disproportionately impact poor people in the US and communities around the globe, it's crucial that we explore our movement's connections and highlight the incredible efforts we are each doing towards a true peace and collective liberation. Today, we are facing increased repression, further militarization of our communities, and we continue to be pitted against each other, yet I hope that through this conversation, we are inspired and reminded of the Power of unity and action against state violence, oppression and injustice, and that we are not alone. We often say that none of us will be free until all of us are free. This is solidarity. By acting in solidarity, we learn how our struggles are intertwined, and by being a part of something larger, it helps us cut through the isolation. Solidarity is essential to build in the power we need to win a world where all people from the US to Palestine to South Africa and beyond, live in freedom, justice, equality and dignity, because we know it's possible. Today, we are joined by two amazing leaders. I'll start by introducing tappello mohapi, the general secretary for avahali based majandolo, which is a movement of poor people with over 150,000 members in 86 branches who live, work and struggle for a better world from within informal settlements across South Africa. For almost two decades, they have advocated for the right to adequate housing and end to force evictions and access to education, water, electricity, sanitation and healthcare, bahali's commitment to having access to their basic human rights has become a threat to the authorities, for which they have experienced a pattern of harassment, threats and attacks against them. They have had 25 members killed over the past 18 years since the movement's formation, in 2005 yet they've maintained a principled position around democracy, housing, human rights and solidarity across poor and dispossessed people around the world. It has been an honor to learn from and connect with leaders from the shack dollars movement, as they have helped inspire our own struggles for justice and freedom here in the United States and many others around the world. Our other speaker is Chris Grove, Executive Director of the escr net to the international network for Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which unites 300 social movements, human rights organizations and advocates across 80 countries collaborating toward the world. We need a world where care for people and the planet solidarity and equality inform decisions and shape structures to guarantee human rights for all. I'm grateful to continue to learn and walk in struggle alongside you both. So let's start the Palo. I'll ask my first question to you. We're interested in better understanding the connections between militarism and poverty and what we call a war economy, where the response from those in power to pressing social issues is force and state violence rather than supplying for the material needs like housing, food, water and healthcare for our communities. Could you speak to the lessons of anti apartheid struggles in challenging this state violence? Specifically, what are the institutional mechanisms versus role of social movements in making this shift from a war economy to a peaceful and inclusive society? Thank you very much, Alan, I'm looking at your scarf and I'm thinking about the pain that the people of Palestine are feeling. And the pain of the indigenous people around the world are feeling, and the pain of every suffering and the poor in the United States of America that are feeling, and that very pain of violence deep down in my heart and I feel the solidarity every day when I think about the people and the pain that we are feeling in the world. We have a few individuals in the world that has so much wealth that can feed us all, yet that wealth is concentrated on the view and the pain of the children and the women that have been killed in Palestine on a daily basis in the war between Palestine. In fact, it's not a war, because if when, when women have been killed, when children have been killed, when poor and marginalized, innocent people who are not responding have been killed. You can't call that a war. It's a genocide. It's an attack on the poor, and therefore we could condemn it. It is united struggles and political struggles that can fight against any form of oppression, whether it's pushing against the indigenous, whether it's oppression against the people of Palestine, whether it's a question against any poor person in this world. That's why I always admire the slogan by a health center fight and not the poor. We are made out of the image of God. Our social economic status should not be what determines who we are as human being, human beings or human beings, whenever, wherever they find themselves. Today, we have xenophobia. We have governments who say they want to build bridges so that they can deny other poor people, and that's right wing tendency has gained touching on the world, but we must condemn it in the strongest manner that we have, because it is all who said that we are made out of this image, and therefore we should be identified as God's people. And anyone who exists in this world is an image of God. It doesn't matter of their color. It is a human being, and a human being must be created in the image of God, and you must identify a human being as equal. That's why we are staying in South Africa. A person is a person because of other human beings. Your humanity cannot exist at all. Your humanity must exist because they exist, and non humanity must exist because they exist, and therefore we must not be human bodies. We must be humans, but humanity. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, tapello for that grounding, because it is right that we make this shift from a war economy to a peaceful and inclusive society by uniting and collectivizing our struggles, knowing that this is the response to stand against all types of oppression. And I love what you said there at the end that our humanity cannot exist alone, because it's due to each other to have in each other. So thank you for for that grounding. And now, Chris, a question to you. We know that there is increased militarization and repression against human rights defenders and organizers across the world. What do some of these attacks look like, and how are these attacks revealing the extent of not just one country's war economy, but a global war economy? Thank you so much. It's really a privilege to be in conversation with you and with the pelo, I'm so grateful for your leadership in uniting communities in South Africa and in the United States and globally through the network, and really reminding us of the importance of practical solidarity, that my struggle is your struggle, that your struggle is mine, and that our humanity is bound up together with one another. So I mean, I would share the observation that repression is very much increasing. You know, during the covid period. You know, as many people will know, it was a period of growing surveillance, of growing policing that has only continued. It was a moment when, due to a number of factors, the intertwining of non state and state actors only intensified the corporate capture of many of our governments. And so the threats, you know, remain multiple. Sometimes that is the use of law. In India, for instance, we've seen many members struggling as foreign funding laws that meant that, you know, 1000s of organizations have lost the ability. To receive funding from outside India. Sometimes it slap suits or perjury charges or anti terrorism legislation. Many times, unfortunately, when that is unsuccessful in silencing dissent, it's threats of violence, violence and assassinations. You know you mentioned in your intro that abahali vajdolo has faced the assassination of 25 leaders. This week, we'll have three of our members going to Honduras to continue to advocate for accountability and the killing of bertocos, which is now eight years old. And so we know that this is going on regularly. And on top of that, you know these this repression is often justified via narratives that dub communities as backward, as anti development is anti national, that blame the poor for their own impoverishment, and in doing so, to try to justify the brutality that's visited on many communities. You know, in reference to your the second part of your question, I would just say, you know, as members have come together, and Kairos and Abhishek have both been part of this, you know, I think we have a growing recognition that the violence we're facing is predictable, that to some extent, capitalism has always been a war economy. The capitalism is founded. Our economic system is founded in colonialism and dispossession, in slavery and brutally forcing people into the workforce and exploiting workers, and when resistance emerges to dispossession, to unjust work conditions, we know that that has throughout the history of our economic system been visited with violence and repression. And so in many ways, this is not unpredictable, particularly as inequality and dispossession has continued to grow. That said, I think in terms of the global war economy, things have definitely intensified. You know, the war in Ukraine has meant that NATO is resurgent as conflicts and competition have escalated with China. China is spending more on defense. Surveillance has grown. People will be very aware, probably over the last couple years of the whole scandals around Pegasus, the surveillance software developed in Israel that was used to hack the phones of journalists and activists and so in that sense, the war economy, the global war economy, is expanding. Many of our police departments, following the lead of the US, are now using military grade weapons and equipment to police their own communities. In that sense, many of our members within esci network, a member of indigenous people, a network of indigenous peoples, groups of social movements, of organizations. Many of our member communities have ever, only ever experienced this state as violence at the behest of corporate and private interests, and I and that has intensified. I think the one thing though, that I would say on, I don't know if this is a positive note. It's a very difficult moment. Historically, we've started to talk about the situation in Palestine. We're at a moment where a genocide is ongoing, and those that have the power to stop it have chosen not to do that at this point, and that's horrifying, including the United States, where I'm based, that still spends more on defense than the 10 next countries combined, but has continued to supply weapons to a regime that is carrying out genocide. That said, I do think we're also at a moment that a lot of our that the economic system, that many of our governments are increasingly losing legitimacy, and people are coming into the street. People are resisting. We are seeing a right wing backlash against that. We're seeing violence used to to silence communities. We're seeing racism, patriarchy being resurgent, various kinds of nationalism, and yet, people are resisting. Ultimately, in the long run, I think violence is futile and and what we're seeing, whether it's Bangladesh a couple weeks ago, with Prime Minister Sheik Hasina being forced to resign, among student protests that only grew despite 300 students being killed, what we saw here in New York City with the president of Columbia University being forced or choosing to resign, but after calling NYPD onto Columbia's campus for the first time in 50 years and using the NYPD to remove protesters in October and again in May, we only saw student protests grow around the country, despite police brutality in many locations and around the world. And so I think there is hope that people are not taking this and that repression is evoking the kind of unity and solidarity that fellows talked about, and that, I think really is the way that we begin to see a transformation of justice, of unjust, economic. Systems that we begin to challenge a war economy and the militarism that's visited on many of our communities around the world. Thank you so much for that, Chris, because it is true, as you were saying, that the violence that we are seeing is predictable given the economic system and how it was based in oppression, but how, by coming together, by uniting our struggles, by leaving into that international solidarity, cross struggle solidarity, we are seeing how this forces are losing and how, like they're losing legitimacy, and the people are coming together because they also, as topela said earlier, like we know that the resources are there for a different world. We know that a different world and society is possible, and we must therefore continue to organize and come together to unite our forces and our struggles. So thank you for that, and I think in a little bit of a way to dive deeper into how do we come together? What does that look like? I want to ask another question of tapello, which is that we know that part of a highly space magondo, and the way you organize and build is by bringing whole communities and settlements in and building power up from the community. When people join, they don't join as individuals, but they bring their community, there's a collective. So could you say more about this model, the philosophy and politics of Ubuntu, and how this is a response to the conditions of violence that your communities are facing. Thank you very much. Once again, first people, we must thank the network for bringing us together, the struggles that are common, the struggle that we are facing we cannot fight on our own. They require us to actually unite wherever we are. We don't have money, but we have ourselves. And if we organize ourselves, and we organize the masses, and it will only then we can fight against what is starving us. So I always regard and I always tell people in my community that your neighbor is your only source of pain. Nobody else will love you and understand the situation that you are, in fact, the person that you live with, and let the person understand the material conditions that you are living under at that point in time when you are being evicted. It is not your only problem. It is the problem of the society. And that's why, when somebody comes to our office, we ask them to go back and mobilize more people who are facing evictions and and has been in the past years, to say that we at least in order for you to start a program for 850 people, because we are encouraging you, as a person who has come to report a problem that you are facing, that you must start organizing, because organizing is very important for you to actually have other forces behind so the only power we have is the power of The masses is the power of people facing the same struggle is the power of people to understand the more we are, the better and we can actually fight against whatever we are facing. Your neighbor is my neighbor, and that person is your brother and that person is your sister. It doesn't matter which part of the world they are if they are facing criminalization of the external, because if you are poor and marginalized anywhere else in the world, it's easy for you to go into prison and be arrested and save lives. If you look at people who are in prison today, these are poor, and you would never find a millionaire in prison unless they are tribals, like ordinary people in our society. And the role of prison, it was created for those who are poor, and that's why, whenever there is criminalisation of put into prison because prisons were made for those who are poor. It was made for those who are fighting against poverty, and that's why we continue to say that we, no matter what he's waiting for. So we have had many activists being criminalized, being put into prison. We've had many over into the school if they are not put into prison. But we continue to organize, and our movement has grown enormously over that years as a result of our saving regardless of what we are facing. The. We will continue the struggle, because it is through the struggle we can fight. It is we owe this to our generations that is going to come. Because if we don't fight this war, against captainism, against extracting our minerals, we will be asked tomorrow, and our next generation will ask the previous because we will not have a planet, because sometimes only hearing about itself and individual. It's it is a selfish individuals that don't care about the next society. So as activists, we should pay about the environment we should pay, about the access to men, about food sovereignty for those who are still coming, because we will have nowhere for the next people that are coming. So if it means that we perish in the midst of antennas. So please. Thank you. Wow. Thank you, truly. Thank you, tepello, for that clarity, for your witness, for what you're helping us learn of how the only power we have is the power of one another, is the power that we create as we come together, the power of the masses, you said, the importance of and the practicality of just knowing our neighbor, knowing our community, like, bring 50 people in your community, you know, like, it's not just about you. You can't do it by yourself. You need the collective. You need to, yeah, know one another, love one another, struggle together. We are responsible for one another, and this is what we owe, not just ourselves, but as you said, the generations to come. So thank you for thank you for that. Thank you for tuning into it's Kairos time stop the war on the poor. We're going to take a brief break from our conversation to hear about an upcoming policy summit on october 17. The Cairo center is bringing together experts on the economy, militarism, the rise of authoritarianism, and project 2025 alongside religious leaders and organizers to offer a concrete analysis of our current context and how our movements and organizations are responding. Join us as we discuss the challenges and opportunities of this kairos moment and how we can build on lessons from the pandemic era to build up powerful movements for the long haul. Visit us@www.kairoscenter.org you welcome back to its Kairos time stop the war on the poor. Chris, on a different I guess line I know that across the bscr net, we have seen an increased interest in taking up the issue of self determination to ensure people's control over their bodies, territories, ways of life and economists in the face of colonialism, imperialism, capitalism and patriarchy, this has included like reinforces indigenous people's rights to free, prior and informed consent and solidarity with anti colonial struggles in Palestine and beyond, as well as exploring self determination as a wider framework for anti imperialist and feminist demands that highlight the rights of individuals, communities and countries to shape their own futures and economies, we Know This is also strongly connected to the networks evolving collective work on alternatives, confronting the hedge of money of capitalism. And I know you all have said that self determination could become a key demand to create space for alternatives, centering collective care and solidarity. Could you share more about this and also how this right is being distorted and turned against peoples in the world, including Israel's use of this idea to justify its war on Palestine, along all of that like, is this a distortion of the concept of self determination? And what are the implications? What are some of the ways that human rights are distorted to justified injustice and oppression, and how can we respond to this? Thanks so much for that question. I mean, I'll just start by saying this is certainly a distortion of self determination in my understanding. But maybe a starting point with that is also to say that you know the draw of I think many members of escr net to reclaim the right to self determination is very rooted in some of what to tell was sharing that ultimately the starting point for our struggles is our concerns, for our families, our communities, our own rights and demands to shape our histories and our futures and the right to. Self Determination of peoples of communities, really speaks to that. And in that sense, as with all human rights, we treat it as universal. So there's you know, my right to self determination, my community's right to self determination cannot undermine another community's similar right to shape their own future and their own well being. Many people will know that the right to self determination was codified or turned into international law following World War Two, in a moment of genocide, in a moment of economic hardship, but also a moment where there were powerful, powerful people's movements and anti colonial struggles. And when this right was recognized. It was a right to freely shape our political status, a right to use our economic and cultural social resources to develop those in the ways that made sense to our community, and really importantly in this moment, also to not be deprived of our only means of subsistence as a people in that sense, you know, looking at the current situation in Palestine, you know some of this has a very long history of the denial of self determination to the Palestinian community. More recently, some people will know that in 2018 Israel passed a national self determination law, and that has been pointed to at different points. That law, importantly, was criticized within Israel at the time by many within Israel, it was criticized in this country, including by the Jewish community in the United States. But that law basically said that the right to self determination was limited to the Jewish population of Israel. It made Hebrew the national language, and downgraded Arabic to a special status, and it actively promoted Jewish settlement of Israel. A lot of people will know that 1/5 of Israel is Palestinian, Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. And so this law, which was reinforced or was upheld by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2021 certainly worsened the status that was already Palestinians within Israel that were Israeli citizens already faced massive discrimination. This law further violated their rights and weakened their position within Israel that said, in addition to that, you know, in 1947 1948 I'm sorry, several 100,000 Palestinians were made refugees. Were were driven from their homes, and they and their descendants remain refugees. In addition to that, there are now some 5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank, in Gaza and in East Jerusalem that basically have no ability, no political voice, no ability to shape their future within legally recognized means. In that sense, long before this, the current genocide that's unfolding in Gaza, you know, UN experts had recognized that at least since 2007 with the closure of Gaza, the UN had referred to UN. Experts had referred to Gaza and open air prison as an open air prison with people experiencing apartheid. And so, you know, we've seen in the recent struggles that connections of South African activists and Palestinian activists because of this shared history of facing apartheid now we see that starvation, that the denial of clean water, are being used as weapons of war, and again, in an incredible, incredible violation of the right to self determination, as well as violations of international humanitarian law, etc. I also appreciate the question, though, of the fact that, you know, not only is this right, the human rights are regularly utilized are the rhetoric of human rights is regularly evoked to justify imperialism, to foreground property rights. You know, it points to narrowly focus on individual rights, individual right holders and individual violators, as opposed to structures. I think in this sense, the right to self determination is also important, because it is, from its origin, a collective right, a right of communities to shape their own future. And it's a right explicitly challenging colonialism and imperialism, and so I think that's a lot of appeal, appeal that it's had for members of escr net, taking even a step back from that. I think when we talk about human rights, although it is useful at points that human rights have been codified in international law, the starting points for human rights are communities, demands for dignity, for well being, for an ability to participate in the decisions that impact their lives. And we're very clear that the only way against powerful forces, powerful private interests that human rights are going to be realized. Is a growing number of communities coming together, uniting their struggles in demanding their human rights. In this sense, you know, we're still convinced that human rights can be a tool to break the isolation of communities, to frame common demands for self determination and other human rights, but it really requires resisting communities, social movements, indigenous peoples, being at the center of our struggles. And I think that's important, particularly important when we talk about building transnational solidarity, that we're really looking to the leadership of our own communities, those that are on the front lines of struggles and and certainly when we're building solidarity across regions, across struggles, we really need to trust that our comrades, the movements and other locations, understand their political context best and take their lead, which, in a way, is building on that principle of communities shaping their own futures, of being able to control their own destinies and set the terms by which they engage with others. Thank you for that, Chris and the clarity and like. I think the importance for those listening like of how self determination explicitly challenges colonialism and imperialism and how this started as a collective. I think it's really important for all of us to hold on to that, and how also the use of human rights are communal demands, and how we were ending saying like, the only way against these forces is by coming together, by growing the number of communities that are joining forces and are coming together to demand their human rights, and how crucial it is for all of us then to continue to build that transnational solidarity. Always, always, always following the lead of those most impacted that that needs to be clear for all of us. And as you were saying earlier too, that my rights and my community's rights do not take away the rights from anyone else, I think, for all of us to to hold that clarity. So thank you for all that. And to wrap things up, the last question of put forward for both of you is that in this times of crisis, it is crucial that we cultivate clarity of mind, body and spirit, draw in strength from our ancestors, who have given us powerful tools to sustain ourselves during periods of struggle. Are there any lessons you want our listeners to hold on to as we continue to lift up the calls for demilitarization and apartment in ceasefire. Now, I think it's very important and very wise for us to know that the struggles of the people of Palestine, the struggles of anyone in the world, the struggles of the people in in South America and elsewhere, who are poor, who are continuously being oppressed because of their state of poverty. It is the struggle of anyone else that exists in the world who say that the system of the world does not work for them. Those are the people who we must fight the struggles that we are facing. So we can never fight the struggles in isolation. We can never be fighting against capitalism in the United States, but we must fight capitalism wherever we find ourselves, because capitalism is everywhere, whether it's people are expecting our minerals, whether it's people who are killing environmentalists, whether it is people who goes sell land and use land for profit rather than the needs of the people, where ladies be used for profit rather than for its social purposes. So those are people whom we must have we want to see a just equal society, where everyone is seen as a human being, where food is not thrown away, when there are people who fail go to sleep without food, where land is used to be cultivated and be used to plant so that people can have access to food. So for as long that cause is still there for us to fight we need each and everyone else in the world, the struggles of the indigenous, the struggles of people, the struggles of environmentalist, those who are fighting against extraction of the minerals, those Who are extracting our environment those who fights against those it's a struggle of the same human rights that we are facing. And in the midst of this, people have been killed. People have been killed in Mexico, people have been killed in Colombia, people have been killed in Guatemala, people have been killed everywhere in. The world, and people have been killed in South Africa. And the same pain that the people of Palestine are feeling is the same pain that you are feeling every child, every woman, every human being, it loses their mind. But that's why, when we give solidarity, we don't give solidarity is a manageable way, but we give solidarity because we feel the pain that our brothers and sisters are feeling across the world, because poverty does not exist. And I want to say to everyone who is still that the fight that you are fighting is not an easy fact. It is a fight that I have, over the years, responded in the liveliest bodies of my comrades who were speaking, and when you speak, put to power, you are going to be killed, arrested. So it is a challenge for every activist, every whether they are indigenous activists fighting against people, whether it's environmentalist who are preventing those who are expecting our mirrors and destroying our environment, it is the beauty of each and every one of us. Let us not leave the world that way that we found it. Thank you. Capello, Chris, any last words from you? Maybe I'll just start by really uplifting abhisheba, manjandolo and Kairos, and say that you know when the current struggle, when the current conflict, genocide in Gaza began almost immediately, abushali and tapello and other leaders came into motion with protests, with demonstrations standing in solidarity with their siblings in Palestine. And that was also true of Kairos. You know, you've invited me to different protests and sing ins and other events in New York City, you know, standing for the liberation struggle, standing against the occupation in Palestine. And so, you know, I have learned an immense amount from both of you. I've learned an immense amount from other members around the world that day in and day out, are living practical solidarity, that in the words of one of our Sri Lankan members, are very clear that your struggle is my struggle, that you know my liberation is bound up in yours, and are living that day in and day out. And it's not always easy to do the work of connecting our struggles. There are difficult histories at points, and yet I am convinced that the way that we begin to transform injustice, transform the unjust structures that we live under, is to unite, is to connect our struggles. And so in that sense, you know, it is, it's really an inspiration, and it's an ongoing motivation, to my own commitment to see the not only the resistance of movements in their own context, but the solidarity that's emerging around the world, on behalf of Palestine, but on behalf of each other and many other struggles, and that has impacts. You know, there are many members of the network that have paid the ultimate price for that, but there are a lot of smaller prices. You know, in even in the United States, many have lost funding, have lost jobs, have lost relationships because of standing for the liberation of Palestinians. And so it's important to acknowledge that and really to hold up the solidarity that is taking place and is a constant encouragement. I also just want to say, I think for me personally, it's really been important to be surrounded by my siblings in the struggle to be in relationships, mutual support and mutual accountability. This work is difficult in any of our contexts, you know, certainly in the context that topelo and other leaders are fighting in South Africa. But it's important to feel the support of those that are in the struggle with us and and I think all of us, in a sense, need safe spaces to learn and to debate and to continue to grow with people that are committed to the struggle, committed to building diverse and multiple leaders in our movements. And I'm really grateful for that community that many of us have, that I have, and really uphold the importance of many that have brought me into the. Struggle and continue to support me to grow and learn. So yeah, just again. Thank you so much for this opportunity to be in conversation with both of you. It's always such a privilege, and I always learned an immense amount from from my exchanges and discussions with both of you, and really feel honored to be with you today. So thank you. Thank you to both, and just to close us, we need one another. We need to live the world a better place for the next generation. So I invite us all to lean into that practical solidarity, knowing that your struggle is my struggle and my struggle is your struggle. So grateful for you, both Chris and topelo, for your communities. And as Tapella said, poverty should not exist. So fight poverty, not the four.