Peace is the fruit of Justice: Romero and the Church of the People. featuring The People’s Forum & Ministerio Latino

Join us for a special episode of It’s Kairos Time, it was recorded just a few days after the 43rd anniversary of the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero. Our conversation will feature: Claudia De La Cruz from The People’s Forum, Rev. Rhina Ramos from Ministerio Latino. It will be moderated by Director of Cultural Strategies, Charon Hribar

Transcript

 Good evening and welcome. My name is Charon Hribar and I'm the Director of Cultural Strategies here at the Cairo Center. I'm so very grateful to be hosting tonight's it's Kairos Time conversation entitled, peace is The Fruit of Justice, Oscar Romero, and the Church of the People. A kairos moment is a time when crisis and opportunity collide and the possibility of something new can emerge.

And it's Kairos Time is a biweekly series of 30 minute talks with partners, collaborators, and movement builders, where we discuss what's happening and what we're doing to respond in this kairos moment. Tonight, we are joined by two powerful women, faith leaders and organizers who have dedicated their lives to the work of social justice.

We have with us the Reverend Reyna Ramos, who is a pastor and founder of Ministerial Latino, a community of queer Latinx Christians. Reverend Ramos was born in El Salvador, and in 1983, she and her brother fled the country due to the Civil War. After graduating from Hofstra's Uni, Hofstra University's law school, she practiced law for five years, recouping thousands of dollars in unpaid wages for immigrant workers.

Then she went back to school to study theology earning an M div from the Pacific School of Religion. Today she is an ordained U C C minister and the pastor of an open and affirming Spanish speaking congregation in Oakland, California. A veteran community organizer Ramos has also used her formidable voice to to promote educational equality, L G B T Q Rights, global Solidarity with El Salvador and domestic violence prevention.

Welcome. We are also joined by Claudia De La Cruz, who is the co-executive director of The People's Forum. She was born in the South Bronx, immigrant parents from the Dominican Republic. She's a popular educator, community organizer, and theologian. In her role as co-executive director at The People's Forum, Claudia is committed to contribute her experiences and skills in the creation of cultural education space.

Organizers, educators and cultural workers and artists to continue producing, promoting and uplifting the cultural traditions that nurture and strengthen our communities in our struggles towards social justice. For over 20 years, she's been committed to movement building and has actively participated in collective grassroots spaces, particularly in communities in Washington Heights and the South Bronx.

Claudia was a pastor of her home church. I Romero. U C C A community church rooted in the traditions of Latin American liberation theology and grassroots organizing through her ministry. She found her passion and has dedicated most of her life to the leadership development of youth through political education and culture.

We welcome you both this evening. Thank you for being here at the Cairo Center. We are committed to raising up generations of religious and community leaders who are dedicated to building a broad social movement led by the poor to end poverty. This mission deeply aligns with the ministry and legacy of St.

Oscar Romero. And it's why we are here tonight to talk with you all about what Romero and the tradition of Liberation Theology has to say to the realities we are facing in the world today and how it influenced your life and your work. So I wanted to take a moment just to frame our conversation tonight for those that are tuning in that might not know as much about Liberation Theology or Oscar Romero and was going to ask our guests if they can help me do that.

Um, Claudia, as a former pastor of a community church, rooted in the tradition of Latin American theology, Just wondering if you can offer those listening a brief description of what is the Liberation Theology all about? I know that's a huge question, but Yeah. Thank you Sharon. And it's really, really great to be, be with you and be with Pastor, um, and with the Kairos family.

Um, I think it's important to raise that liberation theology. Comes about, emerges as a response to the theology of oppression, um, that has existed for many, many years. One that has served to enslaved, to conquer, to colonize, to justify the exploitation of the many. At the hints of the few, it is a direct, um, response to a religiosity that has served.

To advance the interest of the wealthiest in society at the expense of the majority of the people, um, who are the poor, the peasantry, the working class, those who produce everything that is consumed in society and who unfortunately received a theft from a small minority, um, of society. It's, uh, You know, it, it, it, I think in a lot of ways a, a theology that seeks to deconstruct, um, Oppression, exploitation.

And it reclaims the historical Jesus. A historical Jesus that was a Palestinian Jew, that was a homeless person that walked humbly with the people, um, that placed people who were. Marginalized in his society at the front and center. Um, Jesus, the friend, the companion, the comrade, co-conspirator a teacher and revolutionary with humanistic values and practices.

This is the Jesus, the historical Jesus that Ian theology tries to reclaim and liberation theology emerges in a particular global context. That I think it's important to bring forth, you know, um, and it's not a context that is solely of Latin America, although Liberation Theology has its roots in Latin America.

It's not exclusively of na Latin America. It's a context of the expansion and cementing of the US imperialist forces, um, in Latin America. Comes and emerges in the face of us and post dictatorships, um, from Guatemala to Chile to Peru. Um, you, you name it, right? There was a struggle. Against us backed militarization and dictatorships across the board.

Um, these, these imposed governments regimes produced poverty and underdevelopment, um, through extraction, mul, the extraction of, of resources of labor, um, the imposition of multinational corporations in, in, in the, in those territories as well. And so, The church, you know, and the church with a big C. The institution of the church served to distract and appe the masses in many ways.

But then there was, there were these little churches, um, with the small C that were community churches that were the churches that actually received, um, those who were fleeing the persecution. As activists that provided spaces for organizations to have their political meetings. That created what is now known as Las Campesina, the Peasantry masses, um, or services for folks to be able to come in and, and build community within the church.

It, which it was these spaces. And the, the leadership in these spaces that actually gave life to what Liberation Theology was in the practice, even if the term had not been coined yet, they, they stood in opposition to a leadership that literally blessed weapons to kill. Its own people like the leadership arch bishops, high leaders of the church would bless the weapons that would kill the people, would bless the dictators that would give the orders.

Um, it also emerges in a context of revolutionary fervor and working class struggle and resistance, right? Because there can't be, there's no way in world history, in human history where there has been repression without resistance. So it emerges in a context of, of resistance. It emerges in a moment where there's a Cuban revolution that is taking place and wins when there is a revolution in Nicaragua when there are armed struggles.

Um, and, and you know, there's the, the liberation. Um, liberation Front in Colombia, that's taking up arms. And you actually have Cam Torres, who was a priest who took up arms as well. Um, you have the, which are these small, uh, Groups that develop methods of teaching the peasantry, how to read, how to analyze their context, but more importantly, how to organize in their communities, how to become organized and, and agents of change in their communities.

And so these spaces were led by people of faith, some who were organizers and trade unions and other sectors, and also socialists who are also part of that process of educating people. And so, Again, it, it's, it's, it's a product of its context. Um, later these experiences lead to the different political movements that emerge.

Like in 1971, there was a Christians for Socialism movement that was formed, a coalition to promote socialism in the name of the gospel. In the 1980s, the Christian movement, um, committed to popular struggles emerged, you know, which provided. A space for activist Christians. You know, there are multiple liberation theologians that we could mention.

There are, you know, there is, uh, father Lio Grande who actually preceded Romero and who was his friend, the killing of, of Lio Grande. That was what politicized. Rome, El Salvador. There's also

UBA who was a span who was killed in El Salvador, um, Bonino from rg, and, and you know, the list landless, they were also nuns. That were, they're barely ever mentioned, but they were martyred. A lot of 'em were martyred and raped like the Sisters Iita Ford, uh, Maura Clark, Dorothy Caso, Jean Donovan, you know, these women were, were killed and raped in El Salvador by US backed forces.

And so the revolutionary political character of Liberation Theology. Has his focus on poverty, on reclaiming the agency of the poor Andes as a force to transform the reality and create what God ordained, which is peace with justice because you can't have one without the other. Um, and of course, acknowledging the struggle to deconstruct capitalism and imperialism and rebuild society, humanity, and the planet as, as a living process, not an event.

Something that we take on for our lives to be able to, to co-create. With God co-create with divinity. What is, what is ordained on this, on this earth? So liberation theology has experienced similar moments to that of, of any social movement in history. And we were kind of talking about it. It has shift, it has moved, it has its ups, it has its down, it has its shortcomings, its limitations, but it continues to evolve throughout history in its different contexts.

And so it is a direct response to systems of oppression that involves. Engaged action to transform from a, from a space of faith. Um, Yeah. Thank you. That was a lot to cover in a, in a very short amount of time, and you did it wonderfully. And I think really framing it for us in this context of, you know, a real struggle of, you know, repression and power and empire on one side, right?

And the people's resistance to that and really wanting to bring about, you know, what is what we talk about as Christianity, that Jesus like, what, what was that really about? And who was it for? Right. And, you know, I think that's a really important to be reflecting on in this moment. And wanted to ask Pastor Rina, you know, where does, where did Oscar Romero enter into this conversation?

And, um, you know, what was the significance of who he was, um, in El Salvador, uh, within the context that Claudia was just setting. So I always say I, I was fortunate to have been born, uh, in El Salvador and to have lived through the eighties. To understand what justice fought from a place of, uh, your faithful commitment is, is like what, what in reality looks like.

Um, I was between 10 and 11 when Oscar Romero got killed, and I remember so vividly that night I was still in El Salvador. A neighbor came and knocked at our door and told my mother Romero has been killed. And I saw my mother's face drop, and I remember how somber that night was. It was very heavy and tense because we couldn't cry from earlier out loud because then we couldn't have been.

Targeted as leftists and followers of Romero, although we were followers of Romero, played the every Sunday in the radio. And one time we even had the opportunity to go to see him in the cathedral. 'cause my mother says, when taking the entire family to cathedral to be at a homily and be blessed by Romero.

And we went and. I just remember of the time sitting all the way in the back because the cathedral was back back with hundreds of people. And the other thing I remember is he will finish a sentence and people will get up and standing ovation and clap for several minutes and. You know, I was, I, I was a child, so I don't remember his homily that day.

I will not lie to you and say in quarter because I don't remember it, but I, what I do remember is how moving it was to see all those people listening to something that will make them just clamor and get up from their seats and applaud. Now that I'm an adult and I read his homilies and I understand that part of his hos were the lease of the disappeared, the places that were being massacred, he says his clear demand to stop repression by the force, the armed forces to the people of El Salvador.

I cannot believe he was saying that from the, because at the time we needed to. Tam ourselves from what we said in public. I remember having a tape of revolutionary music that I will hide under the sink every morning just in case we were ever ready, because that happened in the place where I used to live in a neighborhood I used to live.

There were many teachers, and teachers were targeted by the army. So I will play. I will listen in the night. Quietly, and then I will place it on the, the sink just in case they will find a revolutionary music. And that was it. And I had a revolutionary father who also, although he didn't live with us anymore, uh, in his business, he will explain.

He was fighting so that in El Salvador, the dream of a poor kid. Being a doctor was not just a dream, and that's what he used to say to me. He used to indoctrinate me about how commun you were in bad people and how he had been in Cuba, and I didn't have to fear that for El Salvador. And so it might b a nine 10 and getting all these ideas, but pretty much, and pretty soon understanding that.

There are ideas you need to live for. And then we saw the persecuted church in El Salva and Romero was killed and I was there when he got canonized. In 2018, I was holding house with a good friend of mine and we couldn't believe that in our lifetime he was becoming Santo Romero, although the cloud was saying.

Your people make you say, because Yes, as, as Claudia has said, he was saying way before Vatican decided to do it, and that Vatican decided that his sacrifice has been an act of his faith and, and you know, because. Opponents of his canonization were saying it was just a political act, but your face moves you to be all your, are, your values, your soul.

And so, I mean, Romero, I am a, a very proud child of Romero. Uh, and I believe in what he said, he resurrected in all, all of us. And, uh, I, I'm glad that I, I have been proud of the historic times. Thank you for that. Yes, and I think being able to think about, What role he has played in and what role this tradition has played in your own lives and ministry.

And thinking about Claudia, you took us to, you know, liberation theology. That tradition really starts with the context, right? It starts with the struggle. It starts with doing, like, doing theology. Not just that we're, you know, we're thinking about these things and, um, what are the material conditions and, and the political situation and.

Wanting to take us to this moment and, and where we see ourselves. Um, and if you all have reflections on, on where we are right now, the kind of repre repression we're seeing, the kind of polarization that we're seeing both in the United States and around the world, especially as we see once again, you know, Christianity through the lens of, you know, Christian nationalism, white Christian nationalism really being ramped up and, and the way that that's being used, what, you know, how do we actually learn from these experiences coming out of this history and reimagine that for today to, you know, what is, what is its role in, in this moment?

There's, there's a song that is, um, Is a song from the Gu Auas. It's a, so they come from the tradition of the mis campesinas, the mass of, of the peasantry, the mass of, of the, the working class from El and from Nicaragua. And they raised this really good question that I, I always have in mind, which is Christ at the service of who, who is, who is my Jesus serving.

Um, and then it goes to talk about how Jesus has been kidnapped. And, and Jesus must be liberated. And it is the people that need to liberate. Jesus. Right. Um, and so it, it begs to ask the question, you know, what, when, why, how, how did we land where we are? Who benefits from where we are today? Um, you know, this, this understanding of the church, again with the big C being an instrument of the ruling class and, and how it has done horrific things.

In its history, this battle for Christianity, this battle for faith, the battle for emotions, the battle for ideas, um, is a terrain that has been dominated by the wealthy because obviously they have the social, political and economic power to do that. Um, the ways we, you know, we are taught. To listen passively to the message, to feel good on Sunday and forget about church for the rest of the week.

As soon as we step our our feet out, it's okay. You know, 'cause you already saved, you came here, you ha you forget about everything. The very individual, um, indoctrination of what religiosity or spirituality is, and the reality is that, you know, reality, our material conditions challenge us to be engaged in the world.

As poor people, we need to work to survive our, like, our lives are impacted by war, by poli, by policies, adopted by governments, and also by their negligence. You know, COVID 19, like we just, we kind of referred to that like the government allowed for millions of people to die we're impacted by decisions of divesting from schools to invest in policing.

Like we, all of these decisions are. All of these things are material things that impact us. And the most conservative forces have understood this. And rather than organizing their churches to act in the benefit or interest of the majority, they organize their churches to act in favor of those who control and have the power to move the decisions over our lives that are not in our interests.

And so what do we do? Is a question, who does our, who does our Jesus? Who does our God? Who does our church serve? You know, the leaders of this, of these churches that are conservative, that are fundamentalists. These folks weaponize people's need to find who is responsible for their trouble. They weaponize the people's faith, um, selling them a religion and a God that has nothing to do with love, that has nothing to do with justice or restoration.

It's a God that mirrors those who are in power and advances their interests. So why do we continue to engage in this battle? Because I think, you know, it is, it is not as simple as it sounds, but it's necessary work. If we understand that our people, our people of faith generally, because everybody has a certain level of faith that comes from somewhere.

We need to be able to deconstruct what has been imposed on us by an institution such as the church to passively. Take oppression to possibly take exploitation. So at this particular moment where we're living multiple levels of crisis, you know the church shouldn't become a space where people just come to get distracted from the outside world, people should become fortified and should be able to deepen their consciousness and church so that they could come out and be agents of change.

To transform the reality, like our task is to advance the struggles and win the power that allows us to live dignified lives as God intended. And if our church isn't doing that, then we need to ask ourselves what Christ are we praying to? What Jesus what? What God is it that we're serving? Because my God doesn't believe that we were born to be exploited, oppressed, and marginalized.

So, you know, yeah. Sorry. Ready to make No, no, I'm, I'm ready to make a shirt. The church must be fortifying us to be agents of change. I'm ready.

Thank you for that. Yeah. And, uh, Reverend uh, Reverend Rena, do you wanna bring in, bring us into your ministry too that you, um, that you started and, and how, you know, in many ways I think it was a response to, to what we're talking about as well. So I went to seminary because, uh, practicing law has burned me out.

So I went to seminary to recover from practicing law, but I never intended to be a pastor and it just occurred to me to be a pastor once. It was very clear to me that, uh, having grown up of Catholic and then Protestant, that I needed in a space that took everything that I was immigrant, Latina. Spanish speaking, uh, Christian.

And that, that place didn't exist in the Spanish speaking churches. Uh, and, and also lesbian. Um, so I had to create a space and that's when I started dreaming of becoming a pastor to start the church. I started in December, 2011, so that. Everything, uh, could come in into the church door. And, uh, we created a minister Latino with a good friend called Carla Perez and started meeting in my apartment until we grew, and then Mother Church, United Church Christ under the Wind.

And we've been meeting there since then, after our little group started growing and, and we are home to. The entire L G B T Q umbrella in when the CARVAN of L G B T Q siblings were coming north, uh, ended up in the Bay Area, they started attending our services and were surprised that, uh, we were welcoming them as they were because, uh, trans woman told me that in, uh, Tijuana border, she was asked by a church.

To leader to go and change as men to in order to come and have services, uh, food or use the restaurant at that church. Uh uh, and that is what I think most traditional churches do, especially in the Latino community. They want to change people's essence and people's divine presence and creation, just how bad I intended them to be.

And so many study Latino came out of the meaning of not having a place like that. Hmm. Yeah. That's powerful of, of thinking about Yeah. How does church not just teach us to be one per one group of people that's just following along? Right. And, um, and being, you know, following the, the kind of message of empire, but really, You know, how do we create a space that all are welcome, all of who we are, and, and that then fosters kind of this, you know, revolutionary spirit that is gonna take us forward and, and be able to create the space that people need, um, and can foster change, you know, for themselves and for the society as a whole.

And so we're, we're about coming up on our time, but I wanted to lift up a, a quote from, um, St. Romero and, and have you all share with, you know, with our, with our folks tonight. One last what you wanna leave them with as we, as we think about this moment. Um, and, and so this quote says, A bishop may die, but the church of God, which is in the people will never die.

And so, Thinking about this, I think you were just both talking about this, right? That liberation theology, this tradition, this history and, and coming to now isn't about preserving as Claudia, you've been calling it the big C Church, right? Mm-hmm. But it is about lifting up and becoming, you know, a. The small C church and, and bringing about, you know, the real vision of, of what God calls for, for God's people and, and a vision of, of liberation.

And so yeah. Offering you both a, a last word for our listeners tonight. Um, what we are charged to do in this moment. So there is a chant. Uh, I had chant many times when in El Salvador they march Romero and is Romero. Roberto's alive and the struggle continues. Mm-hmm. And so that is so infinitely true and it will continue to do, and uh, Roberto also said we are a microphone of that.

We should be a microphone of that. So let us all proclaim that liberation is the work of all our hands in all our heart. That's right. When, when I, when I read that quote, that quote and what I've heard that quote, he, I make the, the similarities of the connections with Fred Hampton Jr. He said they, they may kill a revolutionary, but they won't kill the revolution.

And so, you know, for as long as there is struggle, there's resistance. There will be people who will organize themselves to win, to be, to win better wages, to have better education, to win rights. As women as L G B Ttt, Q I communities, you know, that's the history of all society. So the history of humanity is actually developed through our struggles as human beings to be able to advance our quality of life.

And so for as long as there are people who are fighting for their existence, Fighting oppression, organizing themselves to survive the revolution is there. And something that I learned very, very early in the space of San Romeo de San Americas is that faith and revolution are a life project. They're not a mo, they're not a stop.

They're not an event. They're not a thing. They're not something. It's not something, it's a, it's a life process. It's something that you take on and you own. Um, because. I, you can't hear me either. I, I, we lost Claudia's sound as she was taking us home there. Um, and calling us forward to, to really live into this moment.

Um, and. Wanting to remind us that we are, you know, we are building a freedom church. Um, that we are building a, a, a church of the people, um, and a church that is committed to, you know, revolutionary struggle. And, uh, I wanna close us this evening by thanking Claude, even though we, we missed her last few words here.

Um, and Pastor Rena for joining, um, and lifting up. Romero lifting up the struggle and lifting up that we are continuing to push forward today. There's a song I'm gonna just share a few words of from our friends, the Peace Poets, um, that says, your liberation is my liberation and my liberation is your liberation.

So let me hear the people say, let's get free. 'cause that's what we are fighting for in this moment and, and for our futures. So, um, With that, uh, I'll ask you if y'all, wherever you are, can join me in lifting this up. And we say, your liberation is my liberation. And my liberation is your liberation. So let me hear the people say, let's get free.

Let's get free. Let's get free. Your liberation is my liberation. And my liberation is your liberation. So let me hear the people say, let's get free. Let's get free. Let's get free. Let's get free.

Thank you all for joining us this evening.