We Declare Jubilee. featuring: The Debt Collective & Common Defense

 “We Declare Jubilee” features Ami Schneider (she/her) from The Debt Collective and Jose Vasquez (he/him) Executive Director of Common Defense. The conversation will be moderated by Noam Sandweiss-Back (he/him) the Director of Partnerships for The Kairos Center 

A Kairos Moment is a time when crisis and opportunity collide and the possibility for something new can emerge. Join the Kairos Center for a new bi-weekly series of 30 minute talks / chats with partners, collaborators, and movement builders as we discuss what’s happening and what we’re doing to respond in this kairos moment.

Music for this episode by Pauline Pisano

Chapters

• 1:21 INTRO
• 4:55 Student Debt Striker
• 14:12 The role of student debt and the military
• 25:05 The Jubilee Year

Transcript

03. IKT DEBT JUBILEE
===

[00:00:00] Hello, it's Kairos time. Welcome. Welcome Toro. It's Kairos time. Welcome everybody to It's Kairos.

Each other and deserve peace, and from the,

this is.

Welcome, welcome. A Kairos moment is a time when crisis and opportunity collide, and the possibility for something new can emerge. [00:01:00] Welcome to the third episode of Its Kairos Time. A new biweekly series of 30 minute talks and chats with partners, collaborators, and movement builders to discuss what's going on in our country and what we're doing to respond in this Cairos moment.

My name is Noam San Weis back and I'm the Director of Partnerships with the Cairo Center and the Poor Peoples Campaign. I'm delighted to be hosting today's it's Cairo's time where, we'll, where we will be focusing on the question of debt. Its role within an economic system that produces so much poverty and plenty amid plenty in the ancient call for Jubilee, for not just debt, debt cancellation, but for the restructuring of our society around the needs of the poor and dispossessed.

Today. Personal debt in this country is at an all time high at almost 15 trillion, which includes almost 1.75 trillion in student debt. In a Peace in Slate Magazine in 2021, Reverend Dr. Liz Theo [00:02:00] Harris and Astra Taylor, a founder with the Debt Collective, wrote that today, millions of Americans are not just poor.

They have less than nothing. The American dream is no longer owning a house with a white picket fence. It is getting out of debt in one of the richest countries in the world. Millions of people now aspire to have $0. Indeed debt is everywhere and it serves only to deepen poverty and widen economic inequality at a time when both are already eroding the very foundation of our society.

And yet today we are also seeing what's possible when poor and working people get together to fight back. President Biden's recent debt relief plan is just a small stepping stone in the right direction. And an important pivot away from the strangle hold of neoliberal economics that have had a hold on our politics for the last half century.

To be sure it is far from enough, but we should celebrate the immediate relief it offers to millions. And the opening. It offers [00:03:00] organizers who know there is more work to be done. And it happened only because of the tenacious organizing of everyday folks like the debts, strikers with the debt collectives.

Others, like our friends with the non-violent Medicaid army are bringing poor folks together to a approve medical debt and a medical system that is structured around profit rather than the provision of healthcare. And our friends at Common Defense are doing important work to challenge the idea that debt has to exist at all, or that we have a scarcity of resources to address poverty in a nation that spends over half of every federal discretionary dollar on the military every year and actually just increased the military budget for 2022.

To a record, 778 billion. Joining me tonight to talk about debt and Jubilee are Amy Schneider and Jose Vasquez. Amy is a student debt striker and a member of the Debt Collective. She lives in the Chicago area and recently helped lead her workplace to win their unionization drive and is currently on their, on their contract negotiating committee.

And Jose is the [00:04:00] Executive Director of Common Defense, a diverse grassroots organization of US veterans and military family members. Jose served 15 years in the US Army and was honorably discharged in 20 in 2007. Jose has experience in education and research, nonprofit management, organizing and philanthropy, and lives in New York City, and thanks to the team that makes its Cairo's time possible.

Pauline and Anna are on all things coordination and tech, and Tony is tweeting up a storm as we speak. Thanks also to the teams over at the Debt Collective and common defense for the support tonight. So I wanna just dive right in and start with some basics. Um, and Amy, I thought we could start with you.

Um, was just curious if you could share a little bit about your own journey, how you began organizing around the issue of debt, and then it'd be great to hear your. Organizing pitch. You know, you're on calls and all day and, and, and when you meet folks, it'd be great to hear how you explain the existence and function of debt within our economic system.

Hi. Thanks for [00:05:00] having me today. I'm happy to be here. Um, so my journey with, um, debt really started because I went to a for-profit college. Um, it was owned by a company called Education Management Management Corporation. Uh, they're no longer in business. Um, they have been sued for 11 billion by the federal government for fraud, um, for predatory uh, recruitment practices.

Um, so when I graduated, I graduated in 2011. Um, and I knew that the school was a scam. I just didn't really know what to do with that information. Um, so I started reaching out to senators. Um, I started reaching out to my State Attorney General. I didn't really get anywhere. Um, I kind of went on strike on my own, um, without really knowing that I was on strike.

But I knew that I refused to pay for a debt that I saw as being unjust, um, as something that I thought was a scam. I felt that. Paying that debt, um, would just reinforce the idea that it was legitimate. Um, and that was never something that I wanted to do. Um, I don't know where that really [00:06:00] came from. It was just inside of me.

Like, I cannot pay this debt. It's not right to do so. So I just didn't. Um, and at first I was, uh, in default, I had exhausted all of my forbearance options. Um, and then in 2000, uh, 14, I started reading, um, about the debt collective and their work with the Corinthian 15 strikers. Um, Students that had gone to Everest W and healed, um, schools, and I was really interested in what they were doing because they also were refusing to pay their debt and had been through a similar situation.

Their school had done all of the same things that my school had done to me. And that's when I started to kind of put two and two together. Um, and around the same time, I had also joined a, um, Group that was specific to my school where everybody was saying the same thing, that they had been through those same things.

Um, so a group of us that had gone to my school, we reached out to the Debt Collective, we actually sent emails, um, to the founders of the Debt Collective. At that time, we were like, Hey, the same thing is going on, um, with us. You know, uh, what do we do? How do we get involved? And about a month later we were [00:07:00] meeting with the founders and, um, doing our first strike, um, well, our first action, which was actually at the National Association of Student Financial Aid.

Um, Advisors, they had a conference in New Orleans and that was the first time I really linked up with the Deck Collective. Um, but more importantly, that was the really, like the first time that I had felt heard, um, and seen. And, um, that people were not blaming me for my debt and where I didn't feel that shame because I finally met other people who were in the same situation.

Um, and I think that that, you know, peeling back of that shame has been monumental in my life. Um, I. Instead of seeing debt as a form of shame and blaming myself for it, I now see that it is structural. Um, I've been able to connect the dots between what my school had done to me and how that's only a symptom of a much larger issue, which is the financialization of really everything.

Um, and that's kind of, yeah, how I got into the work. Um, kind of when I'm pitching the debt collective, um, I just start talking about debt a lot. [00:08:00] Um, very open about it. Um, and usually people. You know, they kind of, when I tell them that I'm interested in debt, they're like, what? What are you talking about?

That sounds really boring. Um, but I kind of pitch it in a way like everyone has debt. And then I explain, you know, that since I've started this work, you know, this idea of debt cancellation for student debt has gone from pie in the sky to now we've actually. Seen debt, uh, cancellation happen under the Biden administration with the recent announcement.

Um, and also there's been, uh, billions of dollars that we've had canceled for other students who have gone to for-profit colleges through the borrower defense process. Um, so really just the way that I kind of pitch it is opening up with my own story and just sharing, um, where I came from and how I got into the work.

Um, what I've seen happen, what I believe is possible. Um, and just really getting people amped up about debt strikes. Um, and, you know, knowing our rights when it comes to debt because, um, one of the things that the financial institutes rely on is us not being informed. Um, so that's kind of, yeah, [00:09:00] how I got into the work.

That's awesome. Now thanks for that, Amy. And I think this point on shame, you know, and putting the blame of, of debt on the person in debt rather than on as an indictment on, on a system is, is really pretty significant. And I was just reading, um, A piece from Astra Taylor, one of the founders of, of the Debt Collective.

And she was, I think, making this really compelling case that for the idea that canceling debt can help to undermine, you know, the shame associated with, with being poor in debt. Um, and that, that that cancellation can also then help break the kind of crushing isolation that folks in debt experience every day, which is a pretty important first step towards actually organizing collective power.

So I'd be curious, like just your sense of, from an organizing perspective, like once you break through that shame. And break through the isolation that folks experience every day from experiencing really, you know, significant debt. Like what does that look like as, as y'all are building an organization made up of folks in debt?

Um, so I think that the really important thing, um, one of the [00:10:00] things that we talk about a lot is that alone, our debts are a burden, but together they make us powerful. So once you overcome that shame, you start to build community with other people who also have debt, you're able to, um, find other people who are in the same situation.

Um, with the student debt cancellation movement and the student debt strikers, um, it was just people who came together from the same sort of situation, um, and who were able to exercise rights and little known rights, um, you know, provisions in the Higher Education Act. Um, and. You know, organized around those things.

Um, whereas when you have shame, you're not even talking about the debt at all. Um, but once you actually start talking about it, um, and realizing that you're not alone in it, then you're able to strategize around it. Like, well, what, what can we do about it? You know, who does this debt actually serve? Uh, how do we actually challenge those structures and, um, bring power back to our, you know, ourselves?

And really that's through building the collective. Um, that's the most important thing that we can do as organizers, is just getting people together and, um, fighting it [00:11:00] together. Because alone they can ignore you, but when you're together, um, it's a lot harder to ignore that, uh, when people do come together.

So from an organizing standpoint, I think. Getting people to, uh, to recognize that, that the need for the collective is, you know, what builds our power. Um, that's one of the most powerful things that we can do. So, I, I wanna bring Jose in in a sec, but Amy, I just, before we pivot, um, you know, Biden just made this really big announcement around student debt.

We know that it's, it's just a first step towards what's needed. It's a significant, you know, shift from, from the policy around debt that we've experienced recently. So, just would be great to get your framing on on that policy. You know, how do you and the folks with the debt collective kind of contextualize the, the recent announcement from Biden?

Um, so obviously it's a huge win for us, um, to have it go from high in the sky to now we've actually seen it actualized with cancellation. Um, but we all know that, that this didn't go far enough. Um, there's still people who are in [00:12:00] massive amounts of debt. I know so many people, and I've talked to so many people over the years who have, you know, six figures of debt having 10 or $20,000 of that.

Canceled. Um, I mean, it's, it's great in the short term and it's going to help a lot of people, which is fantastic and it proves that it can be done. Um, but a lot of people aren't, you know, going to actually see any real changes to their lives when only 10 to 20 is 20,000 is being taken off of six figures of debt.

And with the way that, um, interest kind of, you know, capitalizes. That 10 to $20,000 can come right back very quickly. Um, so we know that we have a lot of work to do. Um, we are really happy with the things that we have seen accomplished, and I think that we have the momentum now. Um, and we've proven that it's, it's a possibility.

We've proven that it can be done, um, which I think solidifies it in, in the minds of other people as well. Yeah. Um, does that Perfect. Actually, I wanna bring Jose in, but Amy, stick around. I, I'd love to ask Jose this question, but [00:13:00] kind of keep you in the conversation on, on this, you know, and Jose, you're the, you know, executive director of a, of a veteran's organization.

Um, some folks watching this might be, Asking, you know, what does that have to do with the question of debt? You know, but, but you know, if we peel the layers back a little bit, we can look at our economy and understand that we're living really in a situation of kind of a permanent war economy, you know, of, of never ending war abroad and, and the militarization of our community communities at home and.

And, and, and, um, and folks don't often connect that reality with, you know, issues like the phenomenon of debt. But I was looking back, even just at the announcement that Biden made a couple weeks ago and, and I found a quote from, from senate minority leader Mitch McConnell, who actually was invoking the military exactly to rail against Biden's announcement.

Um, the quote is, president Biden's student loan socialism is a slap in the face to every family who sacrificed to save for college. Or any person who volunteered to serve in [00:14:00] our armed forces in order to avoid taking on debt. You know, so it was really kind of lifting up this narrative that the folks entering the, in the, the military are, are entering, you know, to avoid debt.

And those are folks that are more deserving, you know, in some ways of, of what they've, they've reaped. And so I just would love for you to speak a little bit to kind of how we should understand the connections. Between our country's addiction to the military and our system of debt, like how do you see the connections playing out in the lives of the, of the military service people and veterans that you work with?

Yeah. Thanks for that question. No. So I guess I, you know, starting from the individual who gets recruited into the military, I think a lot of folks, uh, choose the military as a pathway out of, uh, Debt because they're facing an economy where it's difficult to find work nowadays. And so I think the, the military can be appealing for, for young folks either coming out of high school, sometimes people are in college, and sort of get themselves into student loan debt.

Uh, and there are many programs that the military will offer, whether it's, you [00:15:00] know, some sort of rtc, uh, program or just, um, straight up student loan forgiveness for people that have. Uh, particular kinds of skills, let's say you're, you know, studying nursing, there's ways in which the military can recruit people in, um, with the promise of, of repaying, uh, people's loans.

And so there's, there's already that sort of draw for folks who are or facing debt, um, or, or trying to, uh, as, as you mentioned, avoid it. You know, it's ironic that, uh, Mitch McConnell would be the person to, to sort of, uh, share that quote because I think that, you know, we, we can. Demonstrate over and over how he has voted against the military and, and the veteran community.

So I, I don't, I don't really take what he has to say very seriously. Um, when it comes to, to the military and veterans, uh, community and their families. You know, I, I, I think the piece about, um, our addiction to war is just pretty easily demonstrated. Uh, if you look at a, a bar graph from World War II to the present, our, uh, war economy and the [00:16:00] sort of, um, you know, Appropriations to the military has just grown exponentially since World War ii.

You know, in the past it used to be that we would mobilize for war and then demobilize once the war was over and sort of, you know, kind of scale back down in terms of what our standing army was. Um, but I think the corporations learned during World War II and probably sooner that, you know, war is, is good for business.

And so I think they've figured out ways to, um, Insert themselves into our kind of congressional process. Uh, and they're, and they're really smart about it. You know, the, if, if there's one weapon system that is, I dunno, let's say a F 22 Raptor aircraft for example. Um, the way that that aircraft is, um, designed and built, uh, the distribution of that goes across many congressional districts, right?

And so if you try to kill that particular project, um, Elected officials will say, well, you know, if you, if you close this project down, you're gonna have to close a factory in my district, and that's gonna lose x number of jobs. [00:17:00] Right. And so, you know, they, they have done, uh, a pretty, um, you know, just huge effort, uh, over the last, you know, several decades to, um, kind of.

Create both, uh, need overseas, you know, or just kind of create a, a, a sense that we always have to be at this sort of readiness posture. Uh, but also, you know, if you just look at the, the, um, like you mentioned 778 billion, uh, for this year, you know, that, that there's so much that we could do with that. Um, including, you know, paying, paying for every American's college who wants to go or to forgive the, the loans that they took out to, to receive whatever education they might have.

Yeah. Um, and that's making me think we were having a conversation, maybe it was yesterday as we were prepping for this, and you were also, you know, there's the narrative that the military is sort of this. Um, guaranteed way for folks to make their way up the economic ladder, right? And [00:18:00] that folks can enter, you know, perhaps in, you know, in poverty or economics, you know, dire straits and, and leave, you know, more secure.

Um, and you were just, you know, letting us know that that's not exactly how it really works. And that folks, you know, will often leave the military in, in more debt, you know, or in positions of real economic. Um, precarity and, and in real places of, of, um, of sensitivity, you know, for them to then become real targets for, for a system that really, um, exploits them.

So I just would be curious for you to speak a little bit about that and the folks that you organize. I think anybody who served in active duty knows what the town outside of a military base is like. And there are many, uh, you know, used car salesman, you know, jewelry. Uh, you know, jewelry shops, just all sorts of ways that, um, Active duty personnel are targeted, uh, for that sort of steady [00:19:00] paycheck that they have while they're in the military.

So I know lots of folks that if you, you know, if you don't have, uh, sort of financial management skills before you enter the military, which frankly a lot of folks don't, uh, especially if they leave straight from high school, then, um, you, you often will leave, you know, in a, in a situation that's a lot worse, um, than, than when you started.

You know, and, and there's reasons why people join the military. I think, um, you know, you could easily find yourself in a situation where you've, you know, signed up for too many credit cards or, you know, purchased a, a used car that was, was a lemon. Uh, lots of folks find themselves in that situation. Uh, I, I also think that, um, You know, prior to the post nine 11 GI Bill, there were many, um, colleges, you know, for-profit colleges that were targeting vets because they had, uh, you know, benefits coming from the, from the, uh, veterans Administration while they were in school.

Uh, and many of those folks, you know, never finished their degrees, right. And so I, I think the, the work that Amy and the Debt Collective, uh, [00:20:00] is doing is, is really powerful and, and certainly resonates with some of the, you know, veterans community that found themselves in that, in that position. Yeah. Well, and that's maybe a, a good moment to bring Amy, you back in and, and the two of you like, I, you know, I think also just one of the, the, the biggest, you know, kind of false narratives around, um, Debt cancellation is that we can't afford it.

Right. That, that, that's a burden on the economy and, and on our resources, you know, and I think the debt collective y'all have done really good work at on showing, you know, okay, well, on one hand you're saying that about debt for debt cancellation, but on the other hand, the government's giving out, you know, multimillion dollar PPE loans to, to corporations and where were you when, when that was happening?

So I, I think you've hammered that ho point home really well. There's also this larger point, right? On how we actually just spend our resources every year, you know, and, and this point of looking at the, the military as, as one prime place in which we spend, you know, like, like I said [00:21:00] earlier, near over half of our every federal discretionary dollar, um, on the military.

And, and when it's comes to the military, we don't raise questions like, Affordability and, and can we afford to, to fund that, you know, new program. But then when it comes to, to forgiving folks', um, debt or canceling their debt, you know, then that question of scarcity really comes into play. So I just would be curious how you all feel like you encounter that in the work you do, that narrative of scarcity, you know, amidst so much abundance and, and how you push back against it.

Yeah. So, um, going back to what Jose had mentioned about the for-profit colleges, um, one of the biggest, uh, examples of how, you know, we. You spend all of this money on the military and then, you know, tell people if you go to the military, uh, you're gonna have yourself set for life and everything. Um, we know so many people that went to for-profit colleges, um, and because of that 90 10 rule, they use their GI bill expended, their whole GI bill, um, on those colleges.

Um, and then they're left with nothing. And then you see, you know, Veterans all of the time. They don't [00:22:00] get, he, they don't have access to adequate healthcare. Um, they are, you know, lacking in housing. Um, so we have this big narrative that you go to the military, you, you, you know, serve your time and you come back and that you're gonna be taken care of.

Um, which isn't the reality. You know, we spend big money to go to war, um, but we don't do anything on the backend to actually take care of the people who put themselves on the line. And I think that that kind of goes back to this idea of financialization, um, where, you know, Human beings are seen as, um, you know, we are human capital.

And what other way can you demonstrate that better than actually putting your life on the line, um, to go to war? You're human capital, um, in that, you know, position and then you come back and you're not even afforded the ability to, you know, take care of yourself, take care of your family. Um, and one of the big things is, yeah, we do spend a lot on the military, um, and.

The, the debt cancellation, um, for student debt is less than I, I believe, less than like a percentage point. It's [00:23:00] such a small fraction of our actual budget. Um, but people go, um, into these great lengths to, you know, say that it's not feasible that we can't afford it. Um, student debt cancellation doesn't require a PayGo, so nobody's paying upfront to cancel debt.

Um, and there's been studies, um, one of the most, um, Prominent studies that I like to cite is the, um, the Levy Institute. They had a 10 year study on the macroeconomic effects of student debt cancellation, and they prove that it would actually be a stimulus to the economy. And it makes sense because when people have money that is actually in their pockets, um, On a day-to-day basis, they're not just paying, you know, these fees and these, um, the loan, um, officers and things like that, they're able to reinvest in their community.

They're able to start businesses. They're able to, you know, buy homes, um, and re just really reinvest in their own communities, um, and put money back into the community rather than it just going to make. The rich richer, um, which is what we have right now with [00:24:00] financialization. We've, you know, financialized every sort of thing that should be a public good from healthcare to education, um, to housing.

Everything is for profit right now. And who is actually benefiting from that? It's, it's not the people in the communities, it's the people who are, um, You know, just putting their selves out there to, you know, invest in things and then getting all of this money back. And it's on the backs of other people who are using their bodies as human capital in this system.

I knew we, I knew we had invited you for a good reason, Amy, to, to share, to share the good word on, on all of that. Um. I know we're already getting close to the 30 minutes. Such a fast conversation. I have a lot more I wanna ask and, and hear from you all. But, um, with the time remaining, I just wanted to, um, to reflect for a second, um, on the fact that this month in the.

And the Jewish calendar is the last month of, uh, in Hebrew what's called the shta [00:25:00] year. But many folks know as the jubilee year. This is a jubilee year according to the Jewish calendar. And you know, according to the Bible, you know, the Jubilee is. Um, you know, laid out as a whole set of codes on, on how to reorder and structure society to meet the needs of those who are most in need.

Um, not just as the morally right thing to do, but really as a sort of necessary and essential task to build the stability of a society, you know? And so in, in those ancient societies that included the. The freeing of debt slaves, you know, and, and for folks who had to sell their land in order to survive, it was the freeing of folks who had to take out a mortgage and were foreclosed on or, um, and, and restoring their homes and their properties.

So, you know, really Jubilee was, was about relieving. Dead. It was about the deprioritization of, of land and resources and, and the redistribution of resources around the needs of the poor. So, you know, there's that, this sort of biblical call for Jubilee that, that, you know, is really resonant, I think throughout American history.

[00:26:00] Jubilee is often referenced and, and, and, and brought into the national discourse. And so I just wanted to kind of. Ask you all like, you know, whether or not from a religious perspective, but just from a sort of, um, you know, conceptual idea of what Jubilee could look like today. Like, what does the call for Jubilee mean for us today?

You know, and, and, and that maybe includes that, but, but maybe includes a, a wider perspective on what it. Could actually mean to use our resources and structure society around the needs of folks. So, so Jose, I know maybe start with you, like, how do, how do you understand that concept of Jubilee today and the work you all do with veterans in, in common defense?

Yeah, I know we're, we're, we're short on time. I, what I will say is this, like we are facing a climate crisis. We are just, you know, at the kind of tail end of a, a global pandemic, we were. At war for 20 years with Afghanistan and, and Iraq. You know, I, I, I think that all of those things have [00:27:00] contributed to a situation where our elected officials really need to think about what they can do to best support and, and take some of the burdens off of everyday Americans, right?

We all, um, you know, want resilient communities. We want, uh, You know, peaceful communities and we want, uh, for folks to live without the burden of debt, you know, to sort, sort of just dragging them down. Um, you know, not too long ago, we had a major housing crisis back in, in, in 2008, and that sort of almost collapsed the entire economy.

We had to sort of bail out the corporations who were responsible for all of that. So that's, you know, it, it, it's all in recent memory and I think that, you know, To the extent possible. And I know that, you know, we don't necessarily look to our, uh, political leaders for, for, uh, for things like Jubilee. But I I do think that there are ways in which, um, you know, legislation can be passed.

Like, you know what President Biden just passed in terms of the student [00:28:00] debt relief. You know, they certainly could have gone, uh, a lot further. Uh, but we've got, you know, quite a bit of political gridlock in, in Washington that's sort of keeping us, uh, back from, from those, um, more progressive policies.

Thanks Jose. Amy, maybe you'll have the last word. What, what does Jubilee mean to you today? What, what could it look like to make Jubilee possible today? Um, for me, Jubilee is freedom. Um, it's the freedom to actually live a life without the burden of debt, without having to constantly worry about, you know, how am I gonna pay this bill?

How am I going to put food on my plate? How am I going to, uh, budget so that, you know, I I'm able to afford, um, things for my family. Um, I think that, um, Right now with fee student debt cancellation, um, and seeing people who have gotten out of debt because of the cancellation and through, um, the different, uh, strikes that we've done in the past with four co, uh, profit college students who have also seen their debt rel um, be canceled.

Um, I think when you see the actual human [00:29:00] impact of that, it's hard to ignore. Like people have so much more freedom once they don't have that debt. Um, and it's also, it just relieves, you know, The mental anguish of being in debt because, uh, there is so much shame. And even if, if you do move past that shame of having that debt, there's still the practical implications of having that debt.

You're still gonna have, you know, the debt collectors and everything calling you and trying to collect on it. So even if you don't feel shamed, um, that is still the reality. And when we cancel that debt and we take away that reality, the relief that people feel is immense, um, And I'm excited about canceling more debt.

I'm excited about, um, the possibilities that cancellation brings. Um, because cancellation isn't the whole story. Um, when we move, uh, and actually have these debts canceled, we have to go towards reparative justice and then have things like education for all college, for all Medicare, for all things that actually benefit society rather than, um, just paying for an inflated military budget.

[00:30:00] Perfect. Wow, what a, what a good way to finish. Uh, that's a vision that I can get behind as well. Um, wherever you are watching this, give Amy and Jose both a little round of applause. You can check out the Debt Collective and Common Defense online on their websites. Um, thanks to you both for, for spending a little bit of time with us tonight.

Um, it's Kairos time and thanks to everyone who's tuned in. Um, and tune in next time. Um, alright. Have a good night.[00:31:00] [00:32:00]